A Q and A with Owen Lipstein
It’s hard to believe that Ed Koch was the mayor of New York City so long ago — from 1978 to 1989. Since then, he has written a book with one of our favorite titles of all time: “Giuliani: Nasty Man” (Barricade Press, 1999/2007). And in response to Giuliani’s bid for the Republican nomination, he wrote a new forward. We were lucky enough to meet with him in his office in New York, and this is what he had to say.
Owen Lipstein: You take partial responsibility for the fact that Rudy Giuliani was elected mayor the first time because you endorsed him.
Ed Koch: I have no regrets for having voted for him twice. I voted for him the first time, and I hoped for the best. I broke with him near the end of his term, because he began to politicize the appointment of judges, a major change that I had made with respect to how mayors in New York City would be appointing criminal court and family court judges. When he ran for re-election, his opposition was a radical on the Democratic left, the far left of the party, but a very nice person — Ruth Messenger — someone I have known for many years; but nevertheless, I [held] my nose and voted for Giuliani even though I was critical of him.
OL: One of the premises of your book is that people should inform their decisions based on the public personalities of people. Obviously it’s your premise that he’s a nasty guy.
EK: He’s a mean-spirited person, which I sum up in the phrase “nasty.”
OL: How do you suggest that would-be voters assess the personality of their would-be politicians?
EK: When I refer to personality, I mean how an individual reacts to people. In the case of Giuliani, I believe that he is mean-spirited, and I give as the best illustration of this the fact that he wouldn’t meet with the two highest elected black officials in the city of New York.
I knew many people, leaders and the people who elect leaders, ordinary citizens, and they said to me on a number of occasions, “He’s a racist.” I said, “He absolutely is not a racist. He is mean to everybody.”
Mayors, when it’s at all possible, reasonable, and responsible, should defend cops, but his responses in cases like the [Amadou] Diallo one, cases where it seemed clear that there was a problem, and maybe more than a problem in defending the police actOLns -- his responses just simply inflamed the population. Not just the blacks and Hispanics, but whites as well.
OL: Let’s talk briefly on the subject of post-9/11. Giuliani and even his actions there.
EK: He performed superbly on 9/11. Mark Green made a fool of himself when he ran for mayor and said he could have done it better. Nobody could have done it better.
OL: How about some of the criticisms, the idea that precisely because of the sort of contentious behavior that he helped foster between the police and the community, the [communication regarding the] South Tower coming down [failed]. Was it a Giuliani problem?
EK: Let me give you the best of my knowledge on the subject. The problem of the radio communication was a long-standing problem that mayors before him had tried to eliminate, and [that] he tried to eliminate. I’m not sufficiently technically minded to tell you that the state of the art was such at the time that there was a way of eliminating it, and it wasn’t used. I can say that when he placed the city’s communications center at 7 World Trade Center, that was a ridiculous thing to do. It was on the 22nd or 23rd floor. They had to put in an oil tank, which I’ve read may have been responsible for the fire that ultimately caused the destruction of 7 World Trade Center. When he was recently asked about it in some of the discussions before or after the presidential debates by reporters, his answer was that he did it because the person he appointed in charge of emergencies, I think the guy’s name was Jerry Hauer, had told him to do it. Jerry Hauer is reported in the press as saying, “I did no such thing. I told him to put it in Brooklyn.”
OL: Should he be blamed or criticized for the fact that so many people were operating without masks?
EK: Remember: There is no independent investigation into these matters on my part. I’m really parroting what the major newspapers and reporters have said after they made investigative reports, but I believe them to be accurate. Normally, federal authorities like OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) and other agencies would come in because it was a dangerous site. [But Giuliani] made it clear that he was in charge, and as a result, the normal safeguards had to be enforced by him and city agencies if he displaced the federal agencies that would normally be in charge.
One of the things that clearly was not enforced was a regulation [concerning] those responders who were on site [as well as] the cops, firefighters, and volunteers from all over the city and the country [who] came there wanting to help. Apparently they were not required to put on the respirators that should have been [used] under those circumstances. Now we have, as I understand it, thousands of people who are alleging that they are sick as a result of what happened to them when they volunteered or were officially part of the team to remove debris.
OL: How do you assess his chances for winning the Republican nomination?
EK: I don’t think the Republican right wing will buy Giuliani because of his liberal positions, which initially he tried to run away from, [but] now he’s taken back with explanation. For example, when he first debated, you would get the impression that he was a right-to-lifer against abortion, when in fact that is not true. You can change your position based on new evidence or based on epiphanies with an explanation, and if it’s reasonable and rational, people may not agree with you, but they can accept the change. When it’s a clear flip-flop for political purposes, you only lose votes, and he understood that and went back to his original position.
What I was shocked at was the other recent debate on — I guess it was CNN. [The question was], do you support “Don’t ask, don’t tell,” which is legislation intended to eliminate from the military people who are gay or lesbian and in any way make it public. The intent of that regulation is that the Army won’t embark upon a campaign to look for it if [troops] don’t make it public. But if you make it public, like marching in a gay rights parade or telling people, then they are going to discharge you. In any event, every Democrat, to their credit, said they would eliminate “Don’t ask, don’t tell,” and do what every member of the NATO countries does with respect to their military. There is no restriction based on sexual orientation. It’s conduct that counts..
When the same question was asked of the Republican candidates, they all said, “We wouldn’t change it,” and Giuliani said, “… particularly in the middle of a war.” Now when you contrast that with his very positive supportive actions as mayor with respect to eliminating discrimination against homosexuals, it’s a shock, an absolute shock, especially in New York City.
OL: Is it possible that he may surprise us and be successful in his election bid?
EK: Of course. One business that you really can’t predict the outcome of is the business of politics. At this particular moment, I believe that Rudy Giuliani is popular because people remember his superb leadership qualities demonstrated on Sept. 11, but what most of the country is unaware of is that as a result of his actions over the years, on Sept. 10, one day before, I believe if there had been an election, he couldn’t have been elected dogcatcher.
One other thing that most people don’t know is [that near the end of his term], he went to the Democratic primary candidates Mark Green and Freddy Ferrer, and asked each of them: Would you agree to allow me, Rudy Giuliani, to serve an additional three months? That’s the nuttiest thing I think anybody in public life has ever requested. It would violate every constitutional provision. Without going into all of it, how would it work? He’s the mayor for an extra three months, and the members of the City Council, who are being elected at the same time — they don’t stay for an additional three months; the new ones come in. That too, is dumb, dumb, dumb.
OL: Looking back now, what are you proudest of?
Most people would accord me the following successes: One, I brought fiscal stability back to the city of New York and balanced the budget for the first time in 15 years, setting the city on a course where today it’s a colossus once again. [Two], I gave the people of the city back their spirit. If you asked a New Yorker in 1977 or ‘78, “Where do you come from?” he would say “Long Island,” because he was so ashamed of how low the city had fallen. The third thing [I did] was something that no other city had ever done before or after us, and that is built low-income, moderate-income housing with affordable rents, [using] city dollars and bonds. The fourth thing that they give me credit for is changing the selection of judges, removing politics from the appointments of criminal and family court judges, and I’m very proud of that.
OL: Let’s talk about the second, which is the spirit. People like you.
EK: Whether they like me or not, and I think that they do, I can’t really comment on that. I can tell you that what I did would be most epitomized by the transit strike. I recognized that people were looking to survive the illegal strike that had been perpetrated in violation of the law by transit workers. I saw them walking over the Brooklyn Bridge on the first day of the strike, and I was in the police commissioner’s office on the 14th floor. He was telling us all he could do, which was find parking places and carpools and so forth. In a split second, I looked out the window, and I said, “I’ll be back.” I took the elevator down, there were lots of press following me, and I rushed over to the Brooklyn Bridge. As I got on the bridge, people started to applaud that I was there. I can’t explain to you why I said what I said, but I said it instinctively: “Walk over the bridge,” I said. “Walk over the bridge. We’re not going to let these bastards bring us to our knees.” People were cheering.
OL: People have always responded to you as an individual.
EK: I have always been very grateful that the people of the city of New York allowed me to become congressman and mayor and I love them for it. If they like me, I am very grateful. Being mayor was the high point of my life, but I don’t look back. I practice law. I’m a partner in Bryan Cave. I write books, and have a radio and television program. I write weekly commentaries. I don’t expect to retire until I die, and I expect to die at this desk … I love what I’m doing.