InsideOut Interview: Debra Chasnoff

by Amanda Schmidt / Owen Lipstein May/June 2009



Debra Chasnoff made history in 1991 when she became the first woman to come out while accepting an Oscar—one presented by Spike Lee for Chasnoff’s film documentary, Deadly Deception: General Electric, Nuclear Weapons & Our Environment—an act that prompted Jodie Foster, the year’s Best Actress winner, to enthuse later that night: “That was really cool, what you did!”


Since that evening, Chasnoff, the executive director of Groundspark, a not-for-profit with a mission to inspire meaningful social change through film, has co-created the Respect For All Project, a program that produces media and training resources to help prevent prejudice among young people, and whose film titles include That’s a Family for elementary school-age children, which looks at growing up in different kinds of family structures; and Let’s Get Real for kids in junior high, which focuses on prejudice and bullying.


In her latest film, Straightlaced, which makes its New York premiere this month, Chasnoff heads back to high school to interview kids—straight, gay, female, male, and gender non-conforming—about the pressures they feel to fit in, and the consequences those pressures bring to bear, regardless of whether the kids do or don’t.


Amanda Schmidt: You made history as the first woman to come out while accepting an Oscar. Did you know that you were going to do that?



Debra Chasnoff: Yes. I had memorized my speech. I had gotten great advice from one of the producers of The Times of Harvey Milk. It had won, for Best Documentary, several years before that. And he said, “I think you’re going to win, Debra. And I think you’re going to have 45 seconds. You’d better memorize your speech.” So, I had definitely written it out, and memorized it.
People always say, “Why did you come out?”
I always feel like saying to them, “If you won an Academy Award, wouldn’t you thank the most important person in your life?” I mean, why wouldn’t you do that? So, it wasn’t really a political decision, for me, at all. It was, of course, what I thought was a normal, human reaction, to winning an Academy Award.



AS: How did you start the Respect For All Project?



DC: Well, after I won the Academy Award, everyone kept saying, “Well, what are you going to do next?” And I wasn’t quite sure. But at the time, my oldest son was about to enter kindergarten, and I was really concerned about what kinds of messages he was going to start getting, at school, about his family: the people in the world that he loved the most.
I decided, Well, I’m a filmmaker. I guess I must have something to say. I just won an Oscar. I’m going to make a film that makes the way a little easier for him, and for all the other kids. So I made It’s Elementary, which addresses gay issues in school by making the case that all children are affected by anti-gay prejudice—and that all adults can do something about it. That film gave rise to the Respect For All Project that I created with Helen Cohen, who is the other producer on many of the films that we’ve made.
At that time, we also decided to start distributing our own films, and running educational campaigns, so that we could ensure that they had the biggest impact possible. Our priority has been to create a body of work that is focused on helping youth—and all the adults in their lives who care about them—address issues of prejudice, and hopefully prevent it, with a special focus on trying to really help people address homophobia.



AS: Why did you select gender to be the focus of Straightlaced?



DC: The question we asked ourselves was, How does homophobia play out in [older] teenagers’ lives? What we realized, as we explored it somemore, is that, really, all young people are affected by anti-gay prejudice, and the way that they’re affected by it is through the lens of gender: in the ways that people police themselves, and each other, about what is or is not possible to do—just because you’re male or female. If you scratch the surface of that a little bit, what you come to is the way that gay and lesbian people are viewed in our culture, [which has to do with] the way that women [and men] are viewed in our culture.



AS: Was it difficult to get these kids to talk about gender?



DC: To select these students we went to many, many schools. We would go into classrooms and say, “We’re making a film about the pressures that teenagers face just because they’re male, or female. Here’s a questionnaire. Fill it out, and at the end, if you would be interested in possibly being interviewed, check this box.” We only interviewed people who checked that box, and we based our interviews on their responses to the questionnaire. So they kind of self-selected what they would talk to us about. And [in] the interviews that we got, people were really motivated; they really wanted to talk about this stuff.
I was just in awe of their willingness to be interviewed at all, [much less] to talk so candidly with us. I would ask them, “Why are you doing this?”
One of the young men said, “I know if people know I did this, they’ll think I’m gay.”
So I asked him, “And why are you doing it?”
He said, “Well, I wanted the chance to speak my mind.”
Several of the students said, “No one ever asks us about this stuff. And it’s so much what we think about, every day. And we’re all keeping it inside ourselves.” I think they were really excited to participate in this film that was giving voice to the unconscious, internal monologue that a lot of people have with themselves, every day.



AS: How much time do you think all kids spend worrying about gender issues like body image, sexual identity, or even fashion choices?



DC: I think a huge amount of the time. It’s not what’s coming out of their mouths, and it’s not something that’s at a conscious level, but I think at an unconscious level, it’s enormous. Of course, teenagers are self-conscious; they’re trying to figure out who they are. That’s always been true. But I think there is so much pressure around gender messaging that’s embedded in [that process] that we as a society don’t help people understand and embrace.
Oftentimes, the adults are completely colluding in it. The messaging of fathers to their sons, that “boys don’t cry,” is Exhibit A. There’s a code of conduct for girls, and a code of conduct for boys. Unfortunately, that’s really intertwined with unconscious—or sometimes conscious—anti-gay bias, and assumptions: If you do this, then you will be perceived as being the other gender, and if you’re perceived as being the other gender, then you are homosexual, and homosexuality is bad. It’s like a direct equation.



AS: Can you address the pervasiveness of gender-policing in fashion, in how, for example, baggy pants vs. tight pants are perceived by boys?



DC: I think it’s very pervasive. I mean, fashions change; I don’t know if five years from now that’ll be the same case. But [right now] it’s very, very typical that a lot of young men wear really, really baggy pants. They do not want to wear tight pants because they’re very, very concerned about being perceived as gay. And if you deviate, you run that risk.



AS: In discussing how gender affects the way they are received by their peers, the kids touched on issues from fashion choices to hobbies and career paths, which are pretty typical topics for them. Did they bring up any that you found surprising?



DC: It was very interesting because half of the time, I felt kind of depressed because I’d think, This is the same stuff we talked about when I was in high school, in the ‘70s. The question is, has anything changed? Have we made any progress, with all these years of the Women’s Movement, for example, about the whole “You’re a prude” vs. “You’re a slut” [dichotomy]? But overall, I was really surprised [that] when I would interview students about the pressures they feel to dress a certain way, or the pressures they feel around having sex, it really seems to carry out, across the board—boys and girls, gay and straight.



AS: What are the ramifications of gender perception for kids regarding personal safety? I know many of them raised that issue.



DC: There’s a huge correlation between these pressures, and the risks that many students face, and the violent behavior that others [perpetrate]. We touched on two big issues in the film, and one is suicide. One of the students tells a story about a boy in Kentucky, for example, who was gender non-conforming in how he presented himself. Apparently he was really harassed [by other students], and not supported by his school. Eventually he committed suicide. I think the fact that the school environment was so hostile to him was a factor in his mental-health issues.
The second issue is outright violence, from students having things thrown at them—[like] rocks—to just being terrified to go to school out of fear of being attacked, because either they didn’t conform to the image of what a male or female was supposed to look like, or they were known to be lesbian or gay.



AS: Some kids were very comfortable in their own skin. There was, for example, Edilson, the boy who liked to get manicures, even though people thought that was gay; and T’Uh, the girl that wore basketball clothing, even though she was often mistaken for a boy because of it. What do you think made the difference in those kids who were able to express themselves more fully?



DC: It’s a really good question. I don’t think you can generalize. Edilson references that he’s Brazilian [a culture in which manicures are common], and he comes from a background in his family, where he was supported to be who he was. I know that T’Uh’s family story is very mixed: She’s gotten some support, and some lack of support. So you can’t generalize. I know that she’s had teachers who’ve been supportive of her. I’m sure having adults in their lives who are supportive [has] really helped [both of them].



AS: LGBTQ people have been gaining more visibility in the mainstream media over the past 10 years. Have you seen any impact on peer gender-policing?



DC: Well, it’s interesting. When we first made It’s Elementary in 1996, part of what we articulated in that film was that the only images that you [could] see [were] in films; there was nothing on TV, this was pre-Ellen coming out, and pre-“Will and Grace.” The only things that people saw were the outright smears [against LGBTQ] in mainstream movies.
Now we have positive portrayals of LGBTQ people on TV and in movies, along with all that negative stuff that’s been there forever. So, I think young people are a lot more familiar with LGBTQ people through popular culture than they were 10 or 15 years ago.
On one hand, it’s supported people to feel like they have more ideas and role models. On the other hand, it’s so much more prevalent in our culture that the first thing that people turn to when they want to put somebody down is to accuse them of being gay, or [to] push back at them for gender non-conformity.



AS: Do you think that kids now have expanded ideas of what LGBTQ people can look like, and that as a result, there’s actually more queer-baiting and name-calling?



DC: I think you’re onto something; I think that’s true. It’s so much more familiar now; I don’t think that 15 years ago, calling someone a “fag,” or saying, “That’s gay,” was the first thing that would come to people’s minds. But that is the first thing now. And they say it about anything. So there is a real need, I think, to distance one’s self from anything associated with being gay, or being perceived as that.
At the same time, the average age that LGBTQ people are coming out has really shifted. It used to be late 20s. Now, it’s under 18.



AS: Have you been able to watch any of the kids evolve over the course of interviewing them, and then putting the film together until its premiere?



DC: About a third of the students who were in the film were able to join us for the premiere. It was almost two, and in some cases three, years after we actually did the filming. That was really a wonderful opportunity to see a lot of them who, I think, have gotten stronger as they’ve gotten older.
One young Latina woman, Briseida, was incarcerated because [after] her mom rejected her when she came out as a lesbian, she started to use drugs, and stuff. At the end of the film, she got elected student government president. Now she’s a junior in college, and she wants to be a teacher.
I think of the young man Terry, who, in the beginning of the film, is shopping. And he’s talking about the way he thinks about girls, and what he’s looking for when he thinks about them, and says, “I’m looking for the thickness and the quickness”—which is maybe my favorite line in the film. When he saw the film, he said, “Oh, my God. I was so much younger then. I’m so embarrassed that I said that. And I don’t think that way anymore.”



AS: You live in San Francisco. How has Proposition 8 [California’s ballot proposition which passed in the 2008 general election, eliminating same-sex couples’ right to marry] affected LGBTQ and straight kids there?



DC: Unfortunately, really negatively. First of all, the campaign rhetoric really brought this issue out: If it hadn’t been on everyone’s mind before, it was totally front and center in California culture. Everybody had an opinion about it, and voiced it. What we have seen, since Prop 8 passed, is that there is an intensified fear among more educators to positively address more LGBTQ issues, and bias, in school[s]—which I think is a disastrous fallout from that ballot initiative.
For youth who are LGBTQ, it’s a terrible message that we have sent, as a state, to convey that we think LGBTQ people should be—[and] are—second-class citizens. I think youth have no choice but to internalize that message. And what do they do with that? Not just them, but their straight peers: What do they do with that message, when the people of this state have voted, and said: No. We don’t think you deserve equality. You are second-class. I think we’re all going to pay for the repercussions from that.



AS: What do we need to do, as family, community members, peers, and educators to help facilitate discussions about gender with kids?



DC: I think we need to be way more proactive in bringing up the topic. And not just assuming, “That’s the way boys are,” and “That’s the way girls are.” The first thing we can do is start modeling [non-gender stereotyping] in our own behavior. Model.
If you’re a dad, go take that yoga class that you always wanted to take but that you wouldn’t take, because that’s not what guys do. Let your kids see that you’re doing that. If you’re a mom, don’t tell your daughter that she’s getting fat. So many parents collude in the body-image stuff that girls are really struggling with, so much of the time. We adults have to walk the walk, too.