InsideOut Interview: Jill Neimark May 2007

American Health

“How to Get Good Karma: A Conversation with Jill Neimark,” author of “Why Good Things Happen to Good People” (Broadway Books, May 2007. Co-authored with Stephen Post, Ph.D.)

by Owen Lipstein

Weaving current scientific research with common-sense wisdom, Jill Neimark and her co-author Stephen Post have presented another reason to do the right thing. We were delighted to have an opportunity to speak with her.

INSIDEOUT: What inspired this book?

Jill Neimark: My co-author Stephen Post runs an institute that has sponsored over 50 studies from universities on giving. One of the more remarkable ones takes place over 50 years. This study began looking at folks when they were born in the 1920's, and followed them over their lifetimes, collecting incredibly in-depth data. Stephen sponsored psychologist Paul Wink of Wellesley to pick up the study and go back and interview each one of those people, and then analyze their entire lifetime of data to see if giving predicted health and happiness. Indeed it did, very powerfully.

I thought the message itself is ancient wisdom. Everybody sort of senses it. When you give and another person feels good, you feel good too. You don’t know if it’s going to affect your long-term health or whether it’s going to delay your mortality, which it does. Even if you start at old age, it delays your mortality. You could be in your 70s and start helping others and volunteering, and you’ll extend your lifespan. The message itself needed to be heard again, especially in this completely fractured world we are living in now. It’s not a healthy society. It was backed up by science that was valid and interesting. That is why I decided it was worth a book.

IO: It’s worth saying that most of us automatically assume that what you are saying is true. What is remarkable is that there is some science that backs it up.

JN: And it shows things we don’t know are true. We don’t know that giving can protect the body and the soul that much.

IO: You literally go down the list and talk about ways of giving, like humor, courage, respect, and forgiveness:

JN: Yes, forgiveness is a big one. That was the toughest for me. One has to be careful there, because people often interpret forgiveness as saying what the other person did isn’t wrong, and that’s not really it as much as letting go and moving on. In some cases, forgiveness can be active and you can repair relationships, especially if the other person has a sense of truly apologizing from the heart. Really, it’s about letting go. There is an exercise in there where if you think of everybody you are annoyed at, are mad at, or feel has harmed you, and each one is a potato and you are carrying a sack of potatoes around each day. You start thinking about it, and it’s a great weight. Instead of holding grudges, you just come to peace with it and move on.

IO: Have you forgiven all the people who have wronged you in your life?

JN: No, I haven’t, and that was the hardest chapter for me to write. I thought a lot about it, and that is why I said you do your best. Top forgiveness researchers say it’s a tough one. It’s not easy to have been deeply hurt and it’s hard to let it go. You do your best and sometimes come back to it again, and let it go bit by bit. I don’t think we have to be too Pollyanna about it, but if you really nurse a grudge, you are only hurting yourself.

IO: What about courage?

JN: There is some interesting research about whistleblowers, and they all are glad they did it even if it caused some problems at the time. Think of the guy who blew the whistle about Abu Ghraib — they had to put him under the witness protection program because his buddies were so mad, but I am sure he feels really glad that he did it. In the end he helped the world in a way. Sometimes in relationships, you need to, what Stephen calls, “care-front” another person. You confront them not in an angry way, but in a courageous way about their own destructive behavior and in the end, that’s an act of giving.

IO: What public figure is bravest?

JN: I’m stumped. Rosa Parks.

IO: What about humor?

JN: What’s interesting about it is how it can change and diffuse a situation instantaneously. People can be fighting and one can tell a joke and then they’re laughing. The whole thing is diffused. Someone can be depressed and then you tell a joke and they’re laughing. It’s interesting. I didn’t know [this, but] there are people who are clowns for Alzheimer’s patients.

IO: And respect?

JN: I realize how stratified our society is, so sometimes for me, it just means I talk to the doorman like he’s a friend, or if the cable guy comes I ask him about his life. I don’t just box people into their roles but instead see them as fully human. A lot of times it’s just in small things like that.

IO: How does compassion work?

JN: That one has been written about a lot. It’s kind of self-evident, but there’s some interesting work that’s being publicized a lot now. It’s in Dan Goleman’s book “Social Intelligence” about the neurons in the brain — that we are hard-wired to steal what we see. When we see something happening, our neurons mirror it and we actually go through a version of what’s happening inside ourselves, which is the basis of empathy. Empathy is actually a brain activity. It’s real. It’s not just an amorphous feeling. We suffer with compassion, and it’s what is right in front of us that moves us the most. It’s hard to have compassion, even though intellectually you could, for example, for an AIDS orphan who you imagine exists across the world. You know that if you didn’t buy this pair of shoes [for yourself] and you donate it, maybe that would help, but it’s much easier to have compassion for what’s right in front of you, whether it’s someone injured in an accident, or if someone you love is hurting. Your brain is hard-wired to feel it too, and you want to help.

IO: Loyalty is a good one. Tell us about that.

JN: I was really interested in the fact that if married [couples are interviewed] when they are extremely unhappy and thinking of breaking up, but they stick with it and [are interviewed] five years later, 85% are happy. I think that’s one of the biggest lessons for this culture, because it’s not a loyal culture. You gain a lot by sticking with stuff and sticking with people through difficult times. You are enriched by it. Loyalty is really commitment, and commitment to something, and the longevity of something and its constancy, frees you from anxiety. That can be loyalty to a place you live, your community, a relationship. That doesn’t mean you should be loyal to them to the complete detriment of yourself, but people are too quick to discard things.

IO: Can you tell us about listening?

JN: People don’t realize how powerful it is to really sit still, look at someone and let them tell you how they are feeling. It is really hard to do that. We tend to want to interject with our opinions. A lot of times people just really want to be heard. They want someone to know what is going on deep inside them. I think that’s why people seek out therapists. All you have to do is say, “Tell me how you’re feeling,” and then have the patience to truly sit still and look at the other person. You are going to have the impulse to interrupt within about three sentences and give your opinion. That isn’t what’s needed. It is to really hear another person. People want to be felt and seen deeply.

IO: And, finally, creativity?

JN: That is my favorite. When Beethoven was writing the Ninth [Symphony], he wasn’t thinking about how many people he would transport and who would just be moved deeply. It is one of the greatest pieces of music of all time. He was connected to the divine in his own way. Here was a man in pain; he was deaf and may have had syphilis, and he created this incredible masterpiece. When you listen to the “Ode to Joy,” he took these sort of trickily words and made them so incredible. It could lift anyone out of despair and move anyone to rapture, and that’s down through the ages. That was one of the greatest acts of giving of all time, as far as I am concerned. Creativity is a gift in itself.